Hello Kickass Marketers! I shot a video for my friend David Ford of AffPlaybook that is more of a case study than anything else. It’s a behind the scenes private tour of one of our Mobile Advertiser Portals. I have never seen this done and it will likely never happen again…unless of course, I do it. You get a sneak peak at what one Mobile Advertiser did in 14 days (hint it’s almost $100k)
Contest Rather than transcribe the video I’m going to ask you guys what you learned. The person with the most well written comment, quantity and quality will get a 30 minute private coaching Skype chat with me.
The only catch is you must be willing to allow me to post the content of our dialog and use your Forum Name. I will not be pitching squat. Just open to any question you can come up with and at your disposal for 30 full minutes with 110% of my attention.
Also, for fun all forum members get 1 vote. You vote by thanking the comment writer. David & I will be the judge of who the winner is. So, these qualifiers matter. Number of thanks, quantity, and quality of comment content. Without further ado, here is “KickassMarketer Uncut & Raw” Episode #1 or many to come… 🙂
It’s a long one Charlie Brown. 48 minutes. More of a webinar than anything else. Please comment and let me know what you think.
P.S. The video below is also available to members of Affplaybook.com.
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16 Comments
Kickass
August 17, 2014 at 12:30 pmQuote Originally Posted by jamtal Paid Member of Affplaybook.com
Awesome video, thanks to Dan and David for really great content as always!
You mentioned few times how publishers hate advertisers who lower payouts or kick them out of offers, I personally don’t understand those people (publishers). If you’re sending someone shitty quality leads, how can you expect for them to stay in business? We’re all in this game to profit, not lose money.
Maybe it’s maturity level or being less ignorant but we should all put ourselves (publishers) in shoes of other people (advertisers). Whole point of business is to make everyone happy. That’s why I am definitely happy when I talk to my AM and she tells me that lead quality is great. Even better if you get offer reserved for yourself only, it means other side of spectrum (advertiser) is so damn happy with quality you provide that he’s willing to block out other publishers (maybe even more bigger fish than you).
Even though it’s affiliate marketing, it’s a business. A lot of people don’t treat it as such. We’re not playing with sand here, it’s real money. There will always be people who scam or do blackhat things to get leads, while that could work short term, there’s absolutely no way you can float in this business for lets say, 10 years.
Mobile is definitely great, it’s same yet differs so much from standard desktop advertising. I’m so hooked, can’t wait to try it soon, but first things first aka big budget to be set side!
PS. I assume mobile newbies should stay away from InMobi? 😛
PPS. 100K in 14 days, that’s insane, seriously!
Kickass
August 17, 2014 at 12:32 pmQuote Originally Posted by a Paid Member of Affplaybook.com
I have not pushed much mobile. Maybe about 7K spend dabbling over the past few years.
To sum up your video. It’s just like PPC and PPV just with more variables such as phone models, carriers, isp’s, OS’s etc.. with also having to optimize the source of the traffic. End result for an affiliate is you have to track all the metrics as you would on PPC / PPV.
I have pushed tens of millions of dollars of physical products and services over the past 10 years. On CPS (Cost Per Sale) items you know what the merchant is making and you only make money if they make money. I sell this $100 dollar product and make 7 bucks. It cost me $5 to make the sale so my net is $2 minus business costs.
I’m very curious how you see CPS items playing a bigger factor in mobile as the industry matures. Currently very few quality merchants on ShareaSale, CJ and the like will let you run PPV because of how the traffic is generated. I’m not judging it’s just the truth. With my PPC on Adwords and Bing I have to negative -100 bid on mobile because sales just don’t come in from it CURRENTLY. Many factors play into this and a lot has to do with merchants not optimizing the back-end sales process well for mobile traffic. I fully expect that to change at some point.
Question for you would be.
How do you see the CPA industry for mobile offers evolving over the next few years into a CPS type model or do you think it will stay as it is and be more of a CPI or CPL?
P.S. I’m referring more to main stream physical products when I say CPS. I’m not so much referring to diet and health related supplements.
Kickass
August 17, 2014 at 12:32 pmPoster:
PPV and Merchants: A couple of things here. The more sophisticated (few and far between) get it, and will often have a separate offer for PPC and PPV. 2 of them.
Most of them aren’t sophisticated though. Like 90%. They’re so unsophisticated, they have to lean on the networks (they are not all that great at it either) for their knowledge and know how. But at the end of the day when the traffic hits their system it makes them nervous. Few other factors here like bandwidth, server load, and management. (I’ll tell you a story some day about how I melted some servers with PPV traffic LOL)
They simply do not have sufficient infrastructure in place to handle it. Top it off with the fact that PPV often comes through without a referring URL or you bright guys are cloaking or double-meta-refreshing. From the advertisers perspective (who has likely been ripped off before by guys doing things much uglier than us (like cookie stuffing etc) its just easier to say no to remove the liability. It makes them suspicious.
Also, it dilutes their metrics. For example, you have a PPC guy sending traffic converting at 8% and a PPV guy converting at .05% the aggregate sum would have the average closer to the .05% than the 8%.
When the CMO is seeing their conversion rates tank he panics.
Here’s the problem with CPS versus CPI. CPS takes a ton more traffic to convert than CPI. Affiliates want ROI faster than the Advertiser. For example, I have a $2 install product that when it converts on the back-end is worth $50. Well let’s say the Installs to Sale Ratio is 25. And the Clicks to install is 20. The CPS is $.05. So it takes the affiliate $1.00 to convert the install. If the advertiser switch to CPS and says, Mr. Aff I will pay you $50 for the sale instead of $2 for install. Sound good? It does initially, but then the affiliate has to spend $50 or $100 before they see the sale pixel fire. It’s way easier for the affiliates to handle when the cash outlay is 25 times less before they can see return.
I know. I’ve been trying for three years to move my CPI offer to CPA/CPS. No network or affiliate will do it. A lot more money at risk.
Advertisers that run only CPS are shifting all the risk to the affiliates and they get very low volumes as a result. I’m after scale so I know why they won’t and I’ve surrendered to the fact that I need to absorb he risk or I won’t get traffic.
The $100 product guys are being greedy or their network is keeping a big margin. You should contact them directly and negotiate or move on if you don’t like the return.
I believe CPI/CPL is here to stay forever for the advertisers that want scale. Big name brands that can say go jump off a cliff we don’t need just fire up CPS and think there brand can carry them. They are right to some degree but they won’t see large scale unless their brand is supper strong.
I think CPS offers will grow as more consumer confidence grows and the advertisers grow in their sophistication (building pages that actually better than 0.1% and their infrastructure matures).
CPL/CPI will always be here for the guys who want to scale.
Understood on your P.S. that’s where brand leverage takes affect. But if they really wanted huge volume they would spend the effort to calculate their metrics and move close to the click.
Kickass
August 17, 2014 at 12:33 pmQuote Originally Posted by a Paid Member of Affplaybook.com
Thanks for the Kickass video, simply the best video i have seen on this forum … ever
In the video, You showed plenty of Samsung models GTI9300/GTI9500 etc which makes less money for you than you paid to the advertiser
if possible, can you show 1-2 examples of the Phone models on which the opposite is true (on this campaign), i.e you got atleast 2-3 times more dollars than what you paid to the publisher, thanks
Kickass
August 17, 2014 at 12:34 pmQuote Originally Posted by a Paid Member of Affplaybook.com
Quote Originally Posted by KickassMarketer
…Few other factors here like bandwidth, server load, and management. (I’ll tell you a story some day about how I melted some servers with PPV traffic LOL)…
Hahaha, I’d like to hear that one. PPV is definitely powerful. If you’re not prepared it can even take down your tracking server. I once played around with huge volume of traffic, load was going crazy 😛
Everyone has their own cup of tea, right now I prefer being a publisher. It’s awesome to have your own product/game/app but if you don’t know how to do quality control properly you’re going to have a VERY bad day.
Kickass
August 17, 2014 at 12:35 pmKeep in mind this is one publisher out of 1,000+ (probably 100 of which generate 80% of installs, of those 6 do most of them).
In Aggregate, For that $100k I paid him I made probably $53,500 day one. But the installs keep converting over time. We usually go negative about 10% – 30% month one. Month two is when we make profit.
That’s why most advertisers don’t like this model because there is front load of negative cashflow. But that is short sighted. On month 2 we profit and month 3 is pure profit and it goes for months after that. I’ve even had installs actually convert to sales 9 months after install.
If your goal as an advertiser is to be the #1 offer on the networks with the most traffic, you have to do this and have the cash to burn and wait for profit.
Kickass
August 17, 2014 at 12:36 pmQuote Originally Posted by KickassMarketer
Here’s the problem with CPS versus CPI. CPS takes a ton more traffic to convert than CPI. Affiliates want ROI faster than the Advertiser. For example, I have a $2 install product that when it converts on the back-end is worth $50. Well let’s say the Installs to Sale Ratio is 25. And the Clicks to install is 20. The CPS is $.05. So it takes the affiliate $1.00 to convert the install. If the advertiser switch to CPS and says, Mr. Aff I will pay you $50 for the sale instead of $2 for install. Sound good? It does initially, but then the affiliate has to spend $50 or $100 before they see the sale pixel fire. It’s way easier for the affiliates to handle when the cash outlay is 25 times less before they can see return.
I know. I’ve been trying for three years to move my CPI offer to CPA/CPS. No network or affiliate will do it. A lot more money at risk.
Advertisers that run only CPS are shifting all the risk to the affiliates and they get very low volumes as a result. I’m after scale so I know why they won’t and I’ve surrendered to the fact that I need to absorb he risk or I won’t get traffic.
The $100 product guys are being greedy or their network is keeping a big margin. You should contact them directly and negotiate or move on if you don’t like the return.
Kickass
August 17, 2014 at 12:37 pmMy response to :Quote Originally Posted by a Paid Member of Affplaybook.com
I’d say the moment you have a great idea that provides great value to the end user.
The only catch is that once you have this great app you must distribute it and that is costly. So, when you have some budget and a way to monetize so you can continue promoting it indefinitely.
If you create Value the Universe (God) will find a way to help you distribute it to some extent, but you must start getting the word out some how and the fastest way is to pay to have it distributed.
I can help guide you in low-cost ($0.10 per install in USA) ways to distribute. But, before you distribute be certain that you have a way to monetize the app or else you run out of ways to promote it. At least limit the number of channels for distribution.
Kickass
August 17, 2014 at 12:38 pmQuote Originally Posted by a Paid Member of Affplaybook.com
Hahah. David, I think it’s time for username update
PS. I’d love if in 2nd video you could talk more about your experiences while you were publisher. Obviously you’re not going to give out precise data but something regarding networks and traffic sources for Mobile. You’ve mentioned how InMobi performed horrible for you, can you share why? That’s already a sign in my book to proceed with caution if I decide to start working with InMobi.
I’m asking because it can really help someone who has “general” affiliate experience but is a mobile newbie. There are so, so many mobile CPA networks and mobile traffic sources, maybe even too many for my taste as I’ll probably be tempted to give each one a fair shot before leaving them for good (meaning I’ll probably test out everything possible).
Such insight info (if you can share it) can really help out newbies like me not to waste money on some traffic sources etc.
Thanks Dan!
Kickass
August 17, 2014 at 12:44 pmWay to go man on the campaigns launch.
When I had in-house traffic brokers working for me I required that they each launch 10-12 NEW campaigns everyday.
I use to call it “the spaghetti method”. Each day launch 10-12 New, kill the losers the next day, and try to optimize any that had some semblance of hope (spaghetti that stuck to the wall). The spaghetti that stuck we would do several things to try to make more spaghetti to stick. Move horizontally or vertically in how we expanded targets to see where we could find ways to make more convert.
If you don’t fire up new stuff all the time you never build any momentum. Momentum is by definition (resistance to change…engineer in me talking). So, if you want to build momentum in your business, to keep it growing, you must keep pushing it hard everyday. Before you know it, you have a campaign that you can not stop. Like my friend with the $100,000 per month business that he left alone for 3 months.
Good for you.
Glad to see that my share was enlightening to you. Thank you for saying so and not being a lurker. 🙂
Kickass
August 17, 2014 at 12:45 pmI hereby Knight you Sir Rigsby of the flat table of affiliate success. You get it man. Right on!
For Tapit for example, they do have pubid level insight. It is a “blind network” so they won’t tell you http://www.awesomeconvertingsite.com is the one you should target. For good reason, if you knew what the domain was you could contact them directly. They do know though on the backend.
I know the main guy there who runs their traffic, Marty Boritosik (sp?) he’s a friend of mine from when he was at Neverblue. If Marty B is your rep or whoever…ask your rep there this –> What pubid are advertisers having success in “my niche” that has/have some decent volume?
Have them do a little diggin for you. They will if you ask. Then the next level of optimization starts….handsets…etc…etc…etc
They’ll tell to you go after pubid 67534297.
You have to setup a regular campaign though. Then ask them to manually target the particular pubid(s) that you want. That part is not self-serve.
Also, don’t be afraid to ask for discounts (Nigeria at $.005 ring a bell…bought some from Tapit at that price when we were driving direct with them). They have too much inventory and can’t get rid of it. But, do make sure the pubid(s) you are going after is/are good for your niche even if you have to spend non-discounted prices.
Kickass
August 17, 2014 at 1:02 pmWasn’t this kind of like a case study LOL!
I’ll put it on the list, but to tell you the truth it is on the “b” list right now.
I’m running 4 blogs right now in 3 niches, running traffic for an 8 figure Mobile company, working on a potential $100 Million dollar start-up, and coordinating a big Christian Health Conference in winter…but, committing to creating content for David here is on the “A” list. So, that will have to get in line behind the other stuff I have planned.
I’ll email Marty and see if he’s game. Maybe I can record the Skype call or do something cool like that.
I’ll pray about it and see what the Big Guy says.
Kickass
August 23, 2014 at 4:15 amPrivate Message to me from a reader:
=====================================================
Dan (mr. x),
Hello. your video and posts scared me off! But now I know what NOT to do!
1. When you say they guy bought alot of data. Are you referring to the
buying data as he went out and bought the data from a broker or something
like rapleaf.com? OR is buying data just spending money on testing to
determine which handsets and carriers convert the best?
2. What is the minimum someone needs to earn to be paid weekly? and daily?
I just dont want to run out of cash and run into a cashflow problem
3. When you say it converts at 6-12%, is that with banner ads or by
building an email list and then sending them followup emails
a. Also, is that by direct linking with banners or text link mobile ads?
b. Would that work better if someone created an email list and then
followed up with emails?
4. When those 2 guys made 100k in 2 weeks, how much of that do you
estimate would have been their net profit after their ad costs. I know you
said something about they may have paid 5c per click
5. Are your affiliates using only mobile traffic to get leads, or are they
using other types of traffic on regular computers too?
6. Am i allowed to use the data from your video to setup my targeting to
get a good start. For example, use the handset and country data that you
showed from that guy?
7. So if you can see the handsets and contries that you are converting on
your end, why dont you use that information to run the campaigns yourself
and backwards engineer what your affiliates are doing and copy them? Or is
that even possible? I mean couldnt you just take their winners and then
run it on every mobile ad network until you find what they are doing?
8. Do you have any older posts besides the ones from August?
9. So it pays roughly $2 per install depending on the country, and then
roughly $50 per conversion is that correct?
10. So It says you like CPS instead of CPI. So how much would you pay an
affiliate if they just did CPS and didnt want the CPI, not that im
thinking of doing that but just wondering.
11. So you spent like 7k on mobile traffic, or are you spending more? or
did I read that wrong?
12. So I understand that you lose money on the front end in month 1, but
make it back in months 2 and 3 going forward. So you only make money when
someone pulls out your credit card and buys one of the services your app
offers is that correct? and you don’t make any money on the installs, so
thats why having alot of installs without people buying anything is BAD is
that correct?
12. So do you think I should start out with Nigeria and Australia now, or
is everyone who saw this film on Affplaybook going to be doing that now or
is that a real small group of people who may not take action even if they
saw the video?
13. What other countries work as well to get sales after the installs for
you like Nigeria and Australia that you would want me to target?
14. So you gave a bad example of the guy who you paid like $1200 and he
got like 700 some installs and only 3 sales. So what is a good number of
installs to sales ratio that you would like as a benchmark?
Like 100 installs? 10 sales? etc
15. Any other insider tips you can give me to get started?
Thanks
J
Kickass
August 23, 2014 at 4:41 am1) Buying data means they spent the money to find out what works best.
2) The minimum earned for weekly payments varies depending on the network you work with. Whatever is reasonable and negotiable .
We usually do weekly payouts after an affiliate reaches certain thresholds:
We payout with the following schedule in total earnings:
Monthly on commissions of $0-$500
Bi-weekly on commissions of $501-$2,000
Weekly on commissions of $2,001-$10,000
Twice weekly Mondays and Friday for previous period’s spend (end of UTC) if commission earned exceeds $5,000 per day
Daily for previous day’s spend (end of UTC) if commissions earned exceed $10,000 per day
3) That offer in the video is an app install. The clicks to install usually runs between 6% – 12%, but varies from country to country and traffic source to traffic source.
3a) I am not sure what any one affiliate is doing. The big guys though run their own pre-lander and than direct to our landing page. No big guys run direct link as far as I know.
3b) I am not sure about email follow up. You’d have to test, but my gut says no, it won’t work. Try it and let us all know.
4) I would guess those $100k guys/gals made about 30% margin, maybe as high as 50%. They were buying RON traffic I think so it could have been much better. They would never tell me for obvious reasons.
5) Mobile (I’d guess exclusively), but no way for me to tell if anyone is doing anything creative.
6) Yes, you can use what I share as a starting point for you. Don’t pick the crappy converting (for me) models and send them to me LOL. It’s crap traffic I don’t want. But you could send them to an advertiser who is not monetizing with credit card and they would be tickled pink about your install conversion rates.
7) I’m not interested. I leverage the networks as my sales force. I don’t want to manage 100 direct reports running campaigns. The company I am in now I have one direct report and all the others report to other managers. I want to keep it that way. An in-house advertising team is inefficient, they don’t have the same stake in the game as an affiliate spending their own money, and it’s a pain in the rear to manage.
That being said, trying to reverse engineer what any one is doing is down right impossible and even if I could I don’t want to screw my affiliates. They’re part of my family…seriously. They help feed my kids and the kids of all of our employees.
8) Nope. The site, http://kickassmarketer.com , has only been live for a couple of weeks. I’ll be posting more in Affplaybook.com and on KM in the coming weeks.
9) Yes, we average about $2 CPI and $50 CPA INTL and $40 in USA.
10) See #9 above
11) I don’t know what you mean about $7k. You read that wrong. We spend 7-figure a month at any given time.
12) Yes, we only make money when an install purchases with a credit card. So, installs without a sale are a complete waste of money to us.
13) All English speaking countries do well including Singapore.
14) I want to hit a maximum $40 CPA in USA and $50 everywhere else. You can use the formula I shared in the video to figure that out, just go backwards.
It would be dependent on what the CPI is. Install to sales ratio = Installs/sales. CPI (I’m willing to pay) = Target CPA/(I/S)
Target CPA (earlier in 14 above)
15) I am not going to spend the next three years detailing all the tips I have. LOL! I will be sharing more over time.
Kickass Marketer
Kickass
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Kickass
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